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The compromise between expansion and penetration for short barrel handguns

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11:55 am
February 13, 2012


Gallo

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In gelatin with 4 layers of denim, handgun bullets— of the type that begin with 3— out of a 2.5" or less barrel seem to expand adequately and traverse about 10" to 14" at typical speeds of under 1000 f/s.  However, ballistics gelatin is not flesh and bone, which I assume would reduce penetration of a light bullet traveling slowly.

On the other hand, I've seen a .38 special Buffalo Bore wadcutter penetrate 19" out of a j frame snub (see video link)

This got me thinking about bullet selection for a snub nose: wadcutter vs. hallow point.

I doubt over penetration with a 158 gr. wadcutter traveling at 864 f/s would be a problem.  But the risk of under penetration in a lighter, 125 gr .38 Special at the same speed is very real.

What do you guys think.

Buffalo Bore Wad Cutter 158 gr.

Gold Dot Speer 135 gr.—Good expansion in gelatin

12:57 pm
February 13, 2012


jamie

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When I reloaded .357 and 38special I used both a 125 grain and a 158 grain lead semi-wadcutter. The difference in accuracy and recoil was negligible. The 125 grain had a bit higher Balistic coefficient I was shooting hot loads in 357 mag around 1300 fps. I never shot many hollow points in 38 special.

I was shooting a dan wesson 357 mag with a 6 inch barrel

3:09 pm
February 13, 2012


pm97

Florida

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Over penetration is NOT what you want. You do not want your bullet exiting your target. All of the energy needs to be expended IN the target. As far as I'm concerned 1 inch penetration with ALL bullet energy being left in the target is ideal. I don't care how tuff a human is, 3 hundred or more foot pounds of energy in them will put them down. Especially if you get 2 or 3 rounds in them to add up for a higher total.

3:39 pm
February 13, 2012


Gallo

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PM 97,

How do you come to that conclusion?  There may be a psychological reason for a person to cower with the sting of a bullet that penetrates only a couple of inches, but there is no physiological reason for that person to cease his actions.  Incapacitation comes from disrupting the CNS or a rapid drop in blood pressure— neither is likely to occur with a shallow wound.

Do you think a 158 or 125 grain bullet moving at 860 f/s has enough momentum to over penetrate in a medium as dense as the human body?

4:49 pm
February 13, 2012


jamie

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Gallo everything I have read about "stopping power" for a human the break point seems to be 38 special 9mm and 357 mag 10mm. As I understand it the larger calbers deliver enough kenetic energy to the body to overwhelm it and the smaller bullets do damage until the body is forced to stop.

I think one reason that cops use a hollowpoint bullet is that it tends to break up quickly hitting anything so it is "safer" in an urban enviroment.

I don't know if you read about the US Army in the Moro war, but that's when the went from the 38 special to the 45 ACP as the Moro's used to go into battle juiced up on drugs and would tie cloth strips around jounts before battle that reduced reduced bleeding if they were shot. The Army wanted a pistol with a lot of stopping power and went with the 45 1911. The only reason I found the US Army went with the 9mm is everyone else in NATO was using it!

5:12 pm
February 13, 2012


Gallo

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Jamie,

 

Normally on any barrel 3" and larger I would be proponent of JHP, but out of a J frame I'm a bit torn between JHP and wad cutters precisely because the speed generated out of a 2" barrel is around 850 f/s and the bullet not too heavy.

 

The venerable .45 ACP is a slow moving bullet around 850 f/s but it penetrates plenty due to its heavy weight.

5:27 pm
February 13, 2012


jamie

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If it were me making the choice I'd go for a 357 and then the 158 grain. But I've always been a bigbore/pistol fan.

If I'm shooting 38 special I'd probably go for JHP to make a large wound rather than depend on the kinetic energy of the wadcutter. Especially out of a short barrel some of the powder probably won't have enough time to burn and impart all the energy to the bullet.

5:41 pm
February 13, 2012


MW

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Just to be different…

The 5-7 pistol by FN is nice, holds 30 rounds. They have ballistic tips, but it would be nice to have the ammo the military used. An inherently penetrative round.

 

All the kings horses and all the kings men won’t be able to put the empire together again. -anonymous

11:26 pm
February 13, 2012


Jarhead

Arkansas

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Post edited 11:48 pm – February 13, 2012 by Jarhead


There is a difference between wadcutters and semi wadcutters. Wadcutter ammunition is primarily used for target shooting, but some people who worry about over penetration or who can't stand the recoil of a standard velocity or +P load sometimes use Wadcutter ammo for defense. 38 Wadcutters usually weigh 148 grains and the bullet is loaded flush with the top of the case. Most wadcutters are hollow based so some people load them upside down for defensive rounds.

 

Semi-Wadcutters, which have a flat-pointed conical addition to the Wadcutter design, as well as the sharp shoulder of the Wadcutter is used for target work, hunting and defense. I do not have any idea why, but semi-wadcutter bullets seem to have effects on live targets all out of proportion to their diameter and velocity.

Light bullets (110 to 125 Gr) need velocity to open (mushroom) properly and to be effective. Even with +P+ 38 special you barley meet the velocity needs. The 357 on the other hand has a muzzle velocity of about 1440 fps and a muzzle energy of 583 lbs with the 125 gr HP making it the number one stopping round of all times followed closely by the 110 gr HP. 

Slow rounds need heavy bullets with soft lead and no jackets to impede their expansion.That's why a semi wadcutters made of soft lead are more effective in a slow moving round like the 38 special than the jacketed 125 HP.

As for the 38 specials and the Moros, the army used 158 gr round nose hard cast bullets that didn't expand at all. The full metal jacket 45s didn't either but they were as large of diameter un-expanded as a 38 was expanded and had more weight to boot (230 grs)  The FMJ round nose 45 isn't exactly the last word in stopping power, it was the control expansion  bullets that really brought them into their own.

Muzzle velocity is where your kinetic energy comes from. Double the weight of a bullet and you double the energy, but double the velocity and you quadruple the energy. That's why it's a waste of time going for light bullets in the 38s, unless you are recoil sensitive and looking for a more shootable weapon as opposed to one with more stopping power.

 

PM97 said

Over penetration is NOT what you want. You do not want your bullet exiting your target. All of the energy needs to be expended IN the target. As far as I'm concerned 1 inch penetration with ALL bullet energy being left in the target is ideal.

 

While it's true any energy still in a round after complete penetration is wasted, you need as much tissue and organ damage as possible to stop an attacker quickly. The idea is to have as much penetration as possible with out exit. If one inch penetration was enough a hammer would be deadlier than a pistol.

 

To sum it up terminal ballistic are an interesting but highly technical subject. Books can and have been written on the subject with still no clear answers. There is always going to be the argument….. fast and light vs slow and heavy. I think the truth is either combination is deadly as long as you don't mix them (light and slow), and even that can be deadly at times. Case in point, yesterday my neighbors pit bull got in with my horses and were chasing them. Not wanting to kill him but wanting to teach him a lesson I shot him with a 22 mini cap….a 29 gr bullet at around 710fps . Now this was a big pit bull, but it killed him almost instantly surprised.    

jamie said

The 125 grain had a bit higher Balistic coefficient I was shooting hot loads in 357 mag around 1300 fps

Actually the ballistic coefficient is determined by the length of a bullet vs it's diameter. The longer and skinnier an object is the higher the the coefficient will be. Bullets with a high coefficient not only travel farther they penetrate farther also. Think ball vs spear, the weight may be the same but the spear will penetrate much farther than the ball. 

"  When a well packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and it's speaker a raving lunatic." Dresden James 

11:57 pm
February 13, 2012


jamie

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I agree Jarhead but I was going off the gun I was shooting with a 6" barrel and not a much shorter barrel that Gallo was suggesting.

I think the argument is a bit like what will do more damage to your car in a crash. A 1 ton Dually pickup truck or a Kenworth semi. Both will inflict catastrophic damage on the average car. If given a choice you might pick the smaller of those two choices to crash into, but in reality either one will ruin your day.

5:33 am
February 14, 2012


pm97

Florida

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Hmmm…..where's my post? Seems I remember something about long posts. Do they need to be cleared by the moderator?

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