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6:45 pm
February 4, 2012
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jamie
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|  Golden Apple | posts 1820 | |
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I'll get the M91/30 MOSIN NAGANT in 7.62x54 to start with for around $110.00 plus a few boxes of ammo. Everything I've read about this rifle says it will do fine out to 300 yards and was a sniper rifle in WWII.
This summer I'll be able to swing a Saiga in the same calibre and that should take care of all of my long gun needs. This way I can get 1 set of dies for reloading rifle bullets and my folks have a few different .30 calibre rifles this will be the first of the russian and will gives us some flexibility to buy whatever ammo is availible and cheap.
All together this will give me 2 pistols, 2 rifles and a shotgun so I can arm someone if needed. I'd like to pick up another 12 guage this year but will have to see how the budget works out with getting the wood stove.
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8:33 pm
February 4, 2012
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MW
| | Over the Rainbow | |
| Golden Apple | posts 1622 | |
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Jamie you may want to consider the Mosin-Nagant M44 carbine which has a shorter barrel (20.4" vs. 30") but fine long range accuracy as well. It can be obtained for about the same amount of money. I have a couple m44s myself. They come with the bayonet still attached as well as a sturdy sling usually. Same exact round, perhaps a tad more kick, but not really that noticeable compared to the 91/30
If you lived near me I would give you a deal on one of mine.
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All the kings horses and all the kings men won’t be able to put the empire together again. -anonymous
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9:20 pm
February 4, 2012
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Jarhead
| | Arkansas | |
|  Diamond Apple | posts 2326 | |
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jamie said:
I'll get the M91/30 MOSIN NAGANT in 7.62x54 to start with for around $110.00 plus a few boxes of ammo. Everything I've read about this rifle says it will do fine out to 300 yards and was a sniper rifle in WWII.
This summer I'll be able to swing a Saiga in the same calibre and that should take care of all of my long gun needs. This way I can get 1 set of dies for reloading rifle bullets and my folks have a few different .30 calibre rifles this will be the first of the russian and will gives us some flexibility to buy whatever ammo is availible and cheap.
All together this will give me 2 pistols, 2 rifles and a shotgun so I can arm someone if needed. I'd like to pick up another 12 guage this year but will have to see how the budget works out with getting the wood stove.
The Mosin Nagant is a good rifle and I agree with MW about the shorter barrel if you can find it. The Saiga is offered in 5.56/.223, 5.45X39,7.62X39 and .308 at this time but not the 7.62X54.
The 7.62 X54 shoots a 148 grain bullet at 2700 FPS putting it square in the class of the .308,military loaded 30-06 or 8mm Mauser…..good company to be in and surplus ammo can still be had on the cheap. Factory hunting type ammo is comparable to 308 or 30-06 in price.
Iv'e seen Nagants in pawn shops around here for $75 up. Quite a deal.
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" When a well packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and it's speaker a raving lunatic." Dresden James
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10:11 pm
February 4, 2012
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jamie
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| Golden Apple | posts 1820 | |
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It seems like a good comprimise on cost and the ability to reach out and touch somebody. I don't have enough money to buy all I would like to have and in a mostly urban enviroment I don't need a long range gun yet….
I thought the saiga was chambered for the 7.62 x54. I always learn something from you guys I'll double check that info I was given.
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12:13 am
February 5, 2012
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Crab Apple
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|  Bronze Apple | posts 860 | |
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jamie said:
It seems like a good comprimise on cost and the ability to reach out and touch somebody. I don't have enough money to buy all I would like to have and in a mostly urban enviroment I don't need a long range gun yet….
I thought the saiga was chambered for the 7.62 x54. I always learn something from you guys I'll double check that info I was given.
The 7.62 refers to the diameter of the projectile …. 30 caliber basically.
The second number refers to the length of the shell casing … 39 for the AK-47….. 51 for Nato…… 54 for some commie stuff like the Druganov a sniper rifle built on an AK platform.
here is a page on 308 compared to 7.62 x 51
http://www.303british.com/id36.html
here is good history on the druganov 7.62 x 54
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D…..iper_rifle
They all have their strengths and liabilities, it sounds like you found a good fit for your need for a longer range rifle and staying on budget.
If I remember correctly the Mosin Nagant didn't have a real good platform for optics but there were some add on platforms….. I think …. not sure about that….. a little help here MW?
Anyway I know your are an iron sites kinda Gall but there are conceivable situations where optics could really be beneficial such as the decision to shoot or not at long range by observing the situation more clearly… or shooting to eliminate a problem completely and swiftly…… or accurately placing a projectile to prevent a varmint from getting away while you take the time to close in on it for further inspection.
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1:00 am
February 5, 2012
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jamie
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| Golden Apple | posts 1820 | |
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Crabby adding in optics is a bit of a cost on th M91. Tapping it for a scope wil be a bit of a cost. Learned iron sights in the Army and 300 yard shot was an average range shoot via Iron sights. Not an easy shot but doable even timed. I thought you could get the Saiga in both 7.62x 39 as well as 7.62x 54.
Dammit crabby if you ar right I'll end up 2 guns with different ammo and I don't want that!
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8:15 am
February 5, 2012
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Jarhead
| | Arkansas | |
| Diamond Apple | posts 2326 | |
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Post edited 8:26 am – February 5, 2012 by Jarhead
Three hundred yard shots with iron sites are very doable janie especially on a range but in a hunting or combat situation mila seconds count. Once you get used to them optics are quicker and more accurate than iron sites since you don't have to line up three objects at three different distances. Iron sites have gotten very hard for me to use as my eyesight has deteriorated. If the front sight and the target are clear the back site is a fuzz. With a properly sited scope just place the cross hairs or dot on the target an squeeze the trigger. Optical sites are also much better if you have to let someone with less experience fire your weapon.
Personalty I like modern break action single shots. They lose a marginal amount of speed to a surplus bolt gun for the first few rounds but unless you are able to acquire clips for your surplus bolt gun the single shot becomes quicker to fire after the bolt is empty. If you have an elastic cartridge holder for the butt of your single shots and rounds held between the fingers of your off hand you would be amazed at how fast single shot a can be fired. Next is the case of accuracy, many surplus bolts just don't have it. Although I've read of good accuracy in some surplus rifles I've also read (and experienced) where many of them won't hold a 3 to 6 inch group at 50 yards  . Most used single shots are varmint hunting accurate 1/2 to 1 1/2 inch groups at a hundred yards. They can be had in military calibers like ,308,30-06 or .223 making replacing ammo or matching it with an EBR much easier after the SHTF. Single shots are cheap to buy dependable and easy to find used (in most cases) they are already drilled and tapped for a scope and you can even get extra barrels (on many of them) to switch them to different calibers or even a shotgun. The TC contender (not cheap) can even be converted to a muzzle loader if we are ever faced with necessity of making our own powder (black powder). I know they aren't battle rifle per se but as a starter rifle with great versatility they are hard to beat. Oh and they will stand up to modern camber pressures not something all surplus rifles can claim and I've never heard of one jamming 
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" When a well packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and it's speaker a raving lunatic." Dresden James
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8:17 am
February 5, 2012
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Crab Apple
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| Bronze Apple | posts 860 | |
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Post edited 8:26 am – February 5, 2012 by Crab Apple
jamie said:
Crabby adding in optics is a bit of a cost on th M91. Tapping it for a scope wil be a bit of a cost. Learned iron sights in the Army and 300 yard shot was an average range shoot via Iron sights. Not an easy shot but doable even timed. I thought you could get the Saiga in both 7.62x 39 as well as 7.62x 54.
Dammit crabby if you ar right I'll end up 2 guns with different ammo and I don't want that!
The Saiga is made in Russsia at Izmash or something like that they make bolt action hunting rifles at well but I don't know any more about that like cost, quality or caliber.
Their AK platform variants come in several calibers as well as .410, 20 and 12 guage.
The calibers are
5.54 x 45 ……AK-74 which was there Afghan invasion era imitation of our M-16 the Afghanis refered to it as the "poison bullet" because the steel penetrator core tumbled and made unpredicatable wound channels so that a wound thought to be less than leathal may have eventually proved fatal.
.223 ….. basicly our AR-15 round sorta
7.62x39………AK 47
7.62x51……… .308 sort kinda NATO standard
I will see what I can find on the Bolt Guns in 7.62 x 54.
The Russians currently employ a Sniper Rifle in 7.62x54 but that would be cost prohibitive.
The Druganov, Vietnam era mid-range weapon is expensive too but would be the range you are looking for not exactly sniper range like 800 plus meters but that sweet spot between Soviet Rifleman range and Soviet Sniper Range like 300 to 800 meters.
I hate to sound like a pushy broken record but the bolt gun with decent optics is a valuable long range long range information gather and ……. deterant.
*edit* after reading Jarheads post, (he posted while I was working on mine ), I whole heartedly agree with the points he made about optics and would add that in low light conditions, a scope can make the near invisible…. a realistic target.
He also makes a great point about having a readily available LOCAL source of ammo in common calibers for your area.
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8:57 am
February 5, 2012
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Crab Apple
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| Bronze Apple | posts 860 | |
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Post edited 8:57 am – February 5, 2012 by Crab Apple
Here is the link to the Izmash factory …no bolt rifle in 7.62x54 but one in 7.62x51 I didn't have time to chase down a price. goota run Mrs. Crabby has me by the earrrrrrrrrrrrrr
http://www.izhmash-arms.ru/eim…..p/264.html
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9:13 am
February 5, 2012
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Jarhead
| | Arkansas | |
| Diamond Apple | posts 2326 | |
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Post edited 9:15 am – February 5, 2012 by Jarhead
The Mosin-Nagant rifle fought the enemies of the Russian and Soviet Rodina from the 1890s until the early 1960s. The weapon’s history is a 70-year lesson in what life is like when you don’t get on well with your neighbors. The Russians used their Mosin-Nagants against the Japanese, the Germans, their fellow Russians, neighboring Finns and, finally, more Germans and more Japanese.
The Mosin-Nagant earns no great distinction in having been used and abused by millions of illiterate peasant soldiers and Soviet conscripts. It wasn’t the best all-around infantry rifle of its time. Truth to tell, the Mauser 98 and the Lee-Enfield would be superior SHTF rifles in almost every category—except reliability and price. Nothing holds a candle to the Mosin-Nagant when it comes to price and reliability.
It’s not just a beer-budget blunderbuss. During World War Two, the Mosin-Nagant was the weapon of choice (and necessity) of Soviet and Finnish snipers. These grim reapers of the eastern front used the Mosin-Nagant to single-handedly kill entire companies of enemy soldiers.
 Finnish sniper Simo “White Death” Hayha. He killed 505 Soviet soldiers in just 100 days during the Winter War of 1939-40, using only his Finnish-made Mosin.
Not every Mosin-Nagant is worthy of your zombie panic-room. Triggers run from good to hideous, as do their bores.A good Mosin can shoot 3″ groups at 100 yards with surplus ammo—if you’ve got better eyes than mine. A bad one won’t keep five shots on a Domino’s pizza box.
Another crucial tip: corrosive primers require you to give the rifle a quick cleaning with Windex or another ammonia-based cleaner promptly after shooting, followed by a regular cleaning with your favorite gun cleaner like CLP or Hoppe’s No. 9.
Cleaning a Mosin-Nagant isn’t difficult or terribly time-consuming. But failure to do it even once can ruin the bore and trash the gun.
The Mosin-Nagant’s ’safety’ mechanism isn’t just clumsy; it’s a useless failure. Engaging it requires griping a small, slippery cocking piece on the rear of the bolt and pulling it back with 20 to 30 pounds of force while twisting it counterclockwise. Disengaging it requires the same knuckle-crushing manipulation in reverse. This is challenging for iron-fingered rock climbers, difficult for mortal men and completely impossible for those with arthritis, gloves or cold fingers.
Perceived recoil depends on the type of Mosin you’re shooting. Without a recoil pad, carbine-length M38s and M44s kick like a short barreled 12-guage shooting 3″ rifled slugs. Or maybe like a featherweight .35 Whelen.
The Mosin-Nagant is a ‘blast’ to shoot, on two levels. It’s all kinds of fun to go trigger-happy with a powerful rifle knowing you’re only spending $1 each time you empty the five-round magazine. The Mosin's are also amongst the loudest small arms ever built.
DO NOT fire them without hearing protection, even once, unless your life depends on it. I won’t fire mine without double hearing protection: plugs and muffs. Failure to double up sentences me to a splitting headache, which lasts for hours.
Mounting a scope on a Mosin is tricky. A gunsmith can drill and tap the receiver for specific Weaver-style bases, but you’ll need a bent bolt to clear the scope. This combination of parts and projects can easily cost $200.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.c…..in-nagant/
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" When a well packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and it's speaker a raving lunatic." Dresden James
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2:24 pm
February 5, 2012
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Gallo
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| Bronze Apple | posts 924 | |
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This is a great discussion both informative and very well written. This may be a very stupid suggestion, but wouldn't a modern, off the shelf rifle be much better than a Mosin? I just saw a Rossi 7mm-08 w/ scope at Academy for $199. They also have it in .223. Both are break open action. I'd venture to say that either caliber, especially the 7mm-08, would make for a superb sniper rifle out to 300 yards. And you can find ammo for it at any Walmart. They also got an H&R Pardner 12ga for $179. I actually got this shotgun last year and it's built like a tank. The perceived quality, just handling it, felt much better than the Remington 870. I still have yet to fire it, though.
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7:23 pm
February 5, 2012
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MW
| | Over the Rainbow | |
| Golden Apple | posts 1622 | |
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Post edited 7:25 pm – February 5, 2012 by MW
if I remember correctly the Mosin Nagant didn't have a real good platform for optics but there were some add on platforms….. I think …. not sure about that….. a little help here MW?
Not worth it. The cost would be more than the rifle's. See JH's post:
Mounting a scope on a Mosin is tricky. A gunsmith can drill and tap the receiver for specific Weaver-style bases, but you’ll need a bent bolt to clear the scope. This combination of parts and projects can easily cost $200.
Couple other points…
1) the low price of a good mosin-nagant defeats all negatives about it.
2) at long range, this can very well be an anti-vehicle round as well. Its loud report may identify you, but it will scare the hell out of bogeys and the round will pierce up to 1/4-" steel even at range. I've tested it on old semi truck wheels.
3) Jamie, you have bayonet training. As silly as it may sound, the M44's bayonet as a crowd control and/ or deterrent should not be overlooked. Its a good gut-poker.
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All the kings horses and all the kings men won’t be able to put the empire together again. -anonymous
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8:49 am
February 6, 2012
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Jarhead
| | Arkansas | |
| Diamond Apple | posts 2326 | |
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Post edited 8:58 am – February 6, 2012 by Jarhead
To me one of the greatest advantages to a Mosin is the availability of cheap surplus ammunition but cheap ammo is full metal jacket and if you choose decent ammo there is no cost advantage to it.
I have thought to buy a Mosin and a Saiga to bury along with ammo for both. It's to bad they don't use the same ammo or in the Mosin's case ammo that would be easier to find after the SHTF.
I missed a great deal on a Ruger 77 chambered for .308 Win. a few days ago. It was so cheap ($150) I was afraid it was stolen. Turns out the guy was in trouble and needed $150 quick. By the time I confirmed this the rifle was gone.
I don't really need a .308. I already own a .300 Win mag and a .300 Savage with lots of brass and powder for both. The .300 savage will do anything a .308 will and the .300 Mag is one of the best long range rifles of all time. It's capabilities far exceed mine. I have mulled over the idea of a .308 Saiga for weeks, but $600 will buy a lot of ammo for rifles that already have that need filled.
Maybe a 50 cal BMG upper for my AR……now there's something everyone needs.
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" When a well packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and it's speaker a raving lunatic." Dresden James
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12:49 pm
February 6, 2012
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jamie
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| Golden Apple | posts 1820 | |
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Thanks for all the advice guys. I think I'll still go with the combo even with the different bullet case. I'll go with the 7.62x39 Saiga and at least for reloading I can use the same bullet. I read about the scope problem but I had intended to use only Iron sights anyway. I will give any rifle a good look before buying to ensure I get one that's not shot out.
I will keep my options open for other guns now that hunting season is over and we have a couple of gun shows comming up I'll keep some cash on hand for any good deals.
Not a bad Idea about the bayonet for intimidation factor alone. I'm not sure I'd last very long in a bayonet fight though…..
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6:33 pm
February 6, 2012
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MW
| | Over the Rainbow | |
| Golden Apple | posts 1622 | |
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just a little humor:
All the kings horses and all the kings men won’t be able to put the empire together again. -anonymous
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6:37 pm
February 6, 2012
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Jarhead
| | Arkansas | |
| Diamond Apple | posts 2326 | |
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Post edited 6:43 pm – February 6, 2012 by Jarhead
jamie said:
Thanks for all the advice guys. I think I'll still go with the combo even with the different bullet case. I'll go with the 7.62x39 Saiga and at least for reloading I can use the same bullet. I read about the scope problem but I had intended to use only Iron sights anyway. I will give any rifle a good look before buying to ensure I get one that's not shot out.
I will keep my options open for other guns now that hunting season is over and we have a couple of gun shows comming up I'll keep some cash on hand for any good deals.
Not a bad Idea about the bayonet for intimidation factor alone. I'm not sure I'd last very long in a bayonet fight though…..
I remember in boot camp they taught us that if your bayonet gets lodged in a bone you could fire your weapon to dislodge it. But our DI told us he had never met anyone stupid enough to use a bayonet if he had rounds left in his weapon.
Jamie, a lot of the 7.62X39 and 7.62X54 brass are not reloadable. The 7.62 X39 also uses a .311 cal. bullet unlike American 30 cals that use .308 bullets. You can use .308 bullets but your accuracy will go to hell. I'm not sure about the 7.62X54 as I've never reloaded one.
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" When a well packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and it's speaker a raving lunatic." Dresden James
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6:37 pm
February 6, 2012
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MW
| | Over the Rainbow | |
| Golden Apple | posts 1622 | |
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that was supposed to be a funny comic strip… I hate wordpress and blogspot sometimes. Damn their functionality bugs and archaic interface!
Lets try this again:
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All the kings horses and all the kings men won’t be able to put the empire together again. -anonymous
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6:55 pm
February 6, 2012
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Jarhead
| | Arkansas | |
| Diamond Apple | posts 2326 | |
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Crab Apple said:Here is the link to the Izmash factory …no bolt rifle in 7.62x54 but one in 7.62x51 I didn't have time to chase down a price. goota run Mrs. Crabby has me by the earrrrrrrrrrrrrr
http://www.izhmash-arms.ru/eim…..p/264.html
The “Record” hunting rifle is chambered for 7.62x54R cartridge and features the 3-lug rotating sliding bolt locking the barrel bore. It is manually reloaded, cartridges are fed from the magazine. By request the rifle can be produced with hunting or sport stock.
Probably not available in the US
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" When a well packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and it's speaker a raving lunatic." Dresden James
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7:27 pm
February 6, 2012
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jamie
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| Golden Apple | posts 1820 | |
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I may just start all over again because a lot I thought was true just ain't.
Perhaps looking for a used 308 bolt gun and the saiga in 308 or 223 might be better in the long run.
There is no real rush on getting a rifle as I'm in town and the shotgun and pistols are adequete for the ranges I'm looking at having to use them. But if I want to do any hunting or have to bugout to country my site lines are going to get a hell of a lot longer and a lot more open.
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6:17 am
February 7, 2012
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pm97
| | Florida | |
| Bronze Apple | posts 715 | |
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Jamie- Even if you were to bug out to the country where your site lines are longer and more open, what are you gonna hunt? With a .308 I'd imagine a deer, or some other large game? At the distance you'd be shooting them, do you have the capacity to physically go a retreive the animal? Actually going thru the brush to get it? I mean no offence but could you actually drag the animal home? Or drag it far enough to lift it into/onto your POV and get it home?
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