Fernando, I love your perspective on our Second Amendment! You make sound points and your logic is better than some of our own elected representatives in congress. To add a little background to the debate, I submit evidence from The Federalist Papers, by James Madison:
"Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger. The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops."
2. "Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surroundit."
The Federalist Papers can be looked at as the logic and reasoning behind much of the U.S. Constitution. Here, Madison clearly states that an armed citizenry is the best bulwark against tyrannical central government. Furthermore, he introduces the fact that strong local governments lead by those held in public trust would be the commanders of such private citizens were they to band together as militia to repel tyrannical forces. In is indisputable that the 2nd Amendment grants a private citizen the unfettered right to own firearms and also to use them against a tyrannical force.
p.s. Fernando, I love Fallout Boy in the background. Excited about Fallout: New Vegas???
All the kings horses and all the kings men won’t be able to put the empire together again. -anonymous
5:11 pm March 25, 2010
Jarhead
Arkansas
Diamond Apple
posts 2326
3
As I write this they are talking on TV about the escalating violence due to the passage of the health care debate.
With all these crazy right wingers running around threatening politicians we made need to think about limiting our second amendment rights.
We want Nancy to be safe.
" When a well packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and it's speaker a raving lunatic." Dresden James
6:52 pm March 25, 2010
Loquisimo
Sacramento, CA, USA
Core Member
posts 269
4
Obviously Madison didn't anticipate the govt having nukes, sound weapons, microwave torpedos, and other nifty stuff that allow it to wipe out whole cities that are rebelling in one shot. Back then, the army had rifles, the militia had muskets. Not too big of a difference. Today, the militia would march on Washington with AKs, and they'd fly a microwave torpedo over them, then send cleanup crews to dispose of the charred, melted hunks. Supposedly they've deployed microwave weapons in Iraq. They HAVE used depleted uranium in Iraq, and soundweapons in the US. With the army having all sorts of exotic weapons to kill tons of people at once, the little pea shooters that the people have are useless. Maybe that's why Obama didn't bother renewing the assault weapon ban.
The debate has been going on for a very long time.
7:51 pm March 25, 2010
MW
Over the Rainbow
Golden Apple
posts 1622
6
Obviously Madison didn't anticipate the govt having nukes, sound weapons, microwave torpedos, and other nifty stuff that allow it to wipe out whole cities that are rebelling in one shot. Back then, the army had rifles, the militia had muskets. Not too big of a difference. Today, the militia would march on Washington with AKs, and they'd fly a microwave torpedo over them, then send cleanup crews to dispose of the charred, melted hunks. Supposedly they've deployed microwave weapons in Iraq. They HAVE used depleted uranium in Iraq, and soundweapons in the US. With the army having all sorts of exotic weapons to kill tons of people at once, the little pea shooters that the people have are useless. Maybe that's why Obama didn't bother renewing the assault weapon ban.
While the Federal arsenal is quite considerable, the manpower that imploys said arsenal is the core to its success. As a Veteran of Afghanistan and a first-hand observer of the destructive power wielded by the National Command Authority, I can tell you that desertion and mutiny would be prevalent if any conventional weapons were used against the American people, let alone WMD's. Not to say that our Government is not capable at some point of doing so, but they would only have one crack at it.
The movies hype the government's efficiency level on many fronts. A movie like Will Smith's Enemy of the State wildly exaggerates the Fed's ability to track an individual and implement counter-measures in realtime. If they were that good, 9/11 would have been an impossibility. Other movies like Conspiracy Theory also highly overrate the Gubment's ability to keep a secret. Those points being made, we are in danger of tyranny, but the machine is NOT well oiled, and certainly not without its great share of hang-ups.
Ironically, the Beauracracy we now despise and lament may be our saving grace should we be forced to affect a rebellion.. Lets hope so!
All the kings horses and all the kings men won’t be able to put the empire together again. -anonymous
7:57 pm March 25, 2010
Floridian
Core Member
posts 172
7
When all is said and done and written, you only have those rights which you are willing and able to defend.
Personnally, and for a long time, I never had much use for firearms. But lately I have decided it is prudent to be armed. I hope the open carry movement and other 2nd amendment initiatives continue to grow.
Liberty in Our Lifetime: freestateproject.org
9:12 pm March 25, 2010
MW
Over the Rainbow
Golden Apple
posts 1622
8
When all is said and done and written, you only have those rights which you are willing and able to defend.
Truer words were never spoken.
All the kings horses and all the kings men won’t be able to put the empire together again. -anonymous
7:25 am March 26, 2010
Jarhead
Arkansas
Diamond Apple
posts 2326
9
Loq
Today, the militia would march on Washington with AKs, and they'd fly a microwave torpedo over them, then send cleanup crews to dispose of the charred, melted hunks. Supposedly they've deployed microwave weapons in Iraq. They HAVE used depleted uranium in Iraq, and soundweapons in the US. With the army having all sorts of exotic weapons to kill tons of people at once, the little pea shooters that the people have are useless.
People ascribe super human strength to the government when it come to them controlling us. But when it comes to them helping us (Katrina) they are more like Homer Simpson "Duh! " than Super Man.
Trust me Loq the government is nowhere near as organized or competent as you fear. When they try to do something "big" it usualy turns out to be a giant cluster well you know!
Obama didn't bother renewing the assault weapon ban because he had bigger fish to fry. Give him time he's picking fights in his order of importance.
It wont be an assault weapons ban it will be a weapons ban.
" When a well packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and it's speaker a raving lunatic." Dresden James
8:23 am March 26, 2010
Marblesonac
Bronze Apple
posts 565
10
I think the "help" FEMA gave after Katrina was an experiment. A delibret witholding of food, water, plumbing etc… to see how the people would react.
Stop bitching and start a revolution!
12:04 pm March 26, 2010
Jarhead
Arkansas
Diamond Apple
posts 2326
11
I think the military is by far the most efficient competent branch of the government, but anyone who has ever been a part of it will tell you how quickly the best of plans turns into a complete circle jerk. . The rest start out thay way.
" When a well packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and it's speaker a raving lunatic." Dresden James
6:14 pm March 26, 2010
K
Guest
12
Buying Chinese may be soon very patriotic…, if Jarhead is right about Obama decreeing a weapons ban. I think the economy will really go to $&#\! in a hurry then. Demand in legal and illegal weapons would greatly increase, and thus would present the Chinese and other foreign arm suppliers an very lucrative opportunity to smuggle banned weapons into the USA. If they do smuggle them in then it would be worth their while to sell those arms at cost, or even far below cost.
China has done it before in 1996-
"The San Francisco Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms had infiltrated a smuggling ring and confiscated 2,000 fully automatic AK-47 rifles imported from China. The weapons were found on board a COSCO ship…"