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We, as a "Think Tank" Forum, have gone to Negative, Petty, Crap.

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7:23 am
November 13, 2011


Pete

Bronze Apple
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Crab Apple said:

Jamie,

This is a good read from a Bosnian who lived a real SHTF with no pre planning GOOD READ.

http://www.tacticalintelligenc…..ligence%29

This scenario throws a monkey wrench in the whole "Let's get prepared Argentine Style" SHTF. Even gold and silver lost its value. I like the part about him having a propane tank, not to cook with, but to refill bic lighters…said it was worth its weight in gold, major bartering item! If it comes to this, this is where PM's show there weakness and stored items (LTS and ammo) really stand out. Crabby: once again..great article!! Thank you!

The United States' I grew up in no longer exists…click your heals, Dorothy: you're not in Kansas anymore!!

3:08 pm
November 13, 2011


Jarhead

Arkansas

Diamond Apple
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Post edited 7:30 am – November 14, 2011 by Jarhead


Thanks for the link Crabby. There were some great tips I hadn't thought of. It's a shame this guy doesn't hire a professional writer to help him and write a book. 

Pete

This scenario throws a monkey wrench in the whole "Let's get prepared Argentine Style" SHTF.

I've always doubted that a collapse in America would look much like the one in Argentine. When the world's reserve currency goes down and the world's leading super power collapses it will be unlike anything before. This scenario may not be more likely to occur than what others envision, but it would be much harder to survive. This is the one I'm prepping for, if you are prepared to survive this you should be able to survive anything. 

"  When a well packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and it's speaker a raving lunatic." Dresden James 

10:56 pm
November 13, 2011


MW

Over the Rainbow

Golden Apple
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e always doubted than a collapse in America would look much like the one in Argentine. When the worlds reserve currency goes down and the worlds leading super power collapses it will be unlike anything before. This scenario may not be more likely to occur than what others envision, but it would be much harder to survive. This is the one I'm prepping for, if you are prepared to survive this you should be able to survive anything.

 

Ah, we are back into agreement my friend! I totally agree. This is the fall of Rome x 10.

All the kings horses and all the kings men won’t be able to put the empire together again. -anonymous

7:48 am
November 14, 2011


Jarhead

Arkansas

Diamond Apple
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posts 2326

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Yeah, FerFal has the mindset that an American collapse would mirror Argentina's.

I was interested in the part of the post where the guy said that rural people did much better than people in urban environments. That reflects what happened during the Weimar collapse and makes since in a collapse of that nature. In an Argentina type collapse urban dwellers may have an advantage, though I have trouble seeing it.

"  When a well packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and it's speaker a raving lunatic." Dresden James 

8:46 am
November 14, 2011


Crab Apple

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I think the problem for Argentine rural folks is the same as for South African farmers …..  the very violent looters/home invasion bandits still have the mobility to roam at will and strike far from the cities where there is no one to hear the screams of the home owners being tortured to death for fun and profit.

If mobility was limited by lack of fuel or the fact that decent folks might snipe any group that looks like trouble (like gangbangers out for a picnic) it could mitigate the rural home invasion problem but in my opinion some kind of perimeter alarm, perimeter fence and method of channeling vehicles to  limited approaches AND a 24/7 sentry and mutual defense agreements with neighbors  would be needed.

1:32 pm
November 14, 2011


Pete

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Crab Apple said:

If mobility was limited by lack of fuel or the fact that decent folks might snipe any group that looks like trouble (like gangbangers out for a picnic) it could mitigate the rural home invasion problem but in my opinion some kind of perimeter alarm, perimeter fence and method of channeling vehicles to  limited approaches AND a 24/7 sentry and mutual defense agreements with neighbors  would be needed.

Ahhh: now we're getting back to the meat and potatoes of prepping!! Has anyone actually contacted their neighbors and brought up this type of mutual arrangement with any success; ie: not being thought of as a nutjob?

The United States' I grew up in no longer exists…click your heals, Dorothy: you're not in Kansas anymore!!

2:32 pm
November 14, 2011


Sourdough

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I have been watching the DVD series "Foyle's War". Which appears very authentic (Though slow), but I have been watching it as a learning tool. One thing is clear the Germans did not waste bombs, they pounded the cities. And people of wealth went to their country estate, or rented a room or house in the country.

LOOK: Start to get wrapped around the idea that it was over in the Fall of 2008. This is just the dying quivers. Stop waiting for "IT" to happen, "IT" already happened.
 

4:13 pm
November 14, 2011


Jarhead

Arkansas

Diamond Apple
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28

Post edited 4:25 pm – November 14, 2011 by Jarhead



Crab Apple said:

If mobility was limited by lack of fuel or the fact that decent folks might snipe any group that looks like trouble (like gangbangers out for a picnic) it could mitigate the rural home invasion problem but in my opinion some kind of perimeter alarm, perimeter fence and method of channeling vehicles to  limited approaches AND a 24/7 sentry and mutual defense agreements with neighbors  would be needed. 

Pete said:

Ahhh: now we're getting back to the meat and potatoes of prepping!! Has anyone actually contacted their neighbors and brought up this type of mutual arrangement with any success; ie: not being thought of as a nutjob? 

 

From the article

 Most of the time you are not able to determine who is enemy or friend, expect my family and few real friend, everybody else is potential enemy. When your friend must choose between his child s death and your death guess who is going to choose..

 

.This, to me, really brings home the dangers of non-family arrangements.

More from the article

But i heard from others parts of country, and my frends who stayed in villages in the other parts in state, that they have much better situations,countryside had land,corn,wheat, fruit trees, farms etc they had enough food, it was bad, but much better than in city.

This, to me, had the greatest impact on my thinking, or maybe it just reinforces what I already believed. 

"  When a well packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and it's speaker a raving lunatic." Dresden James 

5:26 pm
November 14, 2011


Sourdough

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Post edited 11:45 pm – November 20, 2011 by Sourdough


 

 

 

 

Pete, there are so very few humans around here, and everyone has to drive 92 miles to the nearest grocery store. So most everyone has two or three months of food, not because they are prepers but because it is so far too the store.

LOOK: Start to get wrapped around the idea that it was over in the Fall of 2008. This is just the dying quivers. Stop waiting for "IT" to happen, "IT" already happened.
 

8:59 pm
November 14, 2011


Justin Case

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The rural vs. urban question may not have a clean answer. 

When hyperinflation was in force in Germany during the mid 1920s, farmers kept their produce off the market for as long as possible.  Townspeople reacted by visiting the farms and taking what they needed (often violently).  Then after Germany started stabilizing the currency, food became plentiful on store shelves, but few townspeople could afford it.  Perhaps people looted stores, but they didn't have to bother going to the country anymore.

When Money Dies: The Nightmare of the Weimar Collapse

Chapter 11: Havenstein

The new danger was that when the peasants finally refused to deliver produce to the towns, the towns would go and fetch it. It had happened in Austria during the blockade. It had happened in the Ruhr and the Rhineland under the provocation of French militarism and enforced idleness. Now there were reports from Saxony -unoccupied Germany — that bands of several hundred townspeople at a time had taken to riding out into the countryside on bicycles to confiscate what they needed.

Chapter 14: Unemployment breaks out

Stabilisation brought as little relief for the middle classes dependent on fixed incomes as for the working classes who could find no employment. A year of stability in Austria, it was observed, had gone far to prove revolution achieved. The closing entries in Frau Eisenmenger’s diary give some idea of what she had undergone:

Foodstuffs which three years ago were entirely unobtainable in Vienna and the rest of Austria [she wrote in December 1923], can now be bought everywhere. But who can buy them? Whose income has kept pace with the tireless activities of the banknote printing-press? Although my holding in shares is worth at today’s quotation more than 10 million kronen, I am at my wits end to know where to find money to buy food … today the value of our krone is quoted in Zurich as 0.00705 centimes …

Having grown up in rural America, I believe that most farmhouses are defenseless against bands of looters.  Farmhouses tend to be isolated.  Barking dogs may alert one to the arrival of strangers, but if they have more weapons than the farm family has and want what the farm family has, the strangers will end up taking what they want.  The authorities will find the bodies of the farm family victims long after the looters are gone.

Farmhouses that are set back from the road might be missed by bands of random looters traveling through the territory.  But drug gangs are going to know the area well and if they decide they want to use the "back 40" for a drug crop, they will end up using that land for their drug crop.  Anyone who stands in the way of that profitable goal will be terminated with extreme prejudice.

The population in the cities and suburbs is a lot more concentrated and the authorities can focus their resources better.  But if the authorities are corrupt or overwhelmed (or leave, as some police officers did after Hurricane Katrina), the population ends up being the losers.

In the final analysis, I think it's best to be where one feels most comfortable.  I don't believe I could survive in rural America anymore because I've been away for too long.  I would be more comfortable taking my chances in a suburban environment (such as where I've been living for the past several decades).  But things could change and if they do, I will adapt my strategy.

Plan Ahead

9:05 pm
November 14, 2011


Gallo

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There is a difference between people in times of war and people that gradually fall into misery as result of an economic collapse. In times of war people's lives change abruptly due to the war but their character remains the same. In the case of a gradual economic collapse people change slowly as the conditions worsen. They become galvanized to their environment. Instead of the people becoming unified against a common enemy like in times of war, in an economic collapse, people turn on each other. Poor against rich or middle class. The nature of the crimes perpetuated against society are brutal and gory. It is a dog eat dog situation.

I would not want to be in a remote location if the US ever got to be like our friends south of here, and they haven't even fallen into an economic collapse. If you think you'll be safer in a remote location, think twice.

10:33 pm
November 14, 2011


jamie

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Gallo I agree I'm seeing the scapegoating begin. It's the boomers fault or my generation's fault or the youngsters are lazy and over-privileged. Mexicans, jews, minorities or other countries. It's everyone's fault but us! I didn't have children so I'm at fault for the birth dearth. I made no new taxpayers for the government to tax the "welfare state".  You all planned ahead, made a good income stored a little value and you selfishly want to keep what you have earned and worked for all your life. Well you must be evil cause you won't share. But why start anything when you will be crushed under regulations or made to feel guilty if you are successful? 

I do feel a little betrayed by the US government as I did fulfill my contract of service in the Army. I did pay taxes for SS for over 20+ years and was told it was insurance if I became disabled. Silly me, I believed the hype! But that does not change the reality that we (the USA) spend way to much money on entitlements.

I make enough via SSD and VA as a single person to not be eligible for SNAP or energy assistance. I'm okay with that, sure it would be nice to have but I'm doing darn good. I do have a problem with folks that are healthy and capable of work that won't do it as they will lose those benefits.

 Being a victim does not make you noble, and it's your choice on how you react. I have very little sympathy for the angst or the" pity parties" that folks tend to have for themselves. 

10:45 pm
November 14, 2011


Sourdough

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posts 730

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Post edited 11:44 pm – November 20, 2011 by Sourdough


There would be no reason for gangs to enter rural Alaska. They are city people, many have never ever been out of the city.

LOOK: Start to get wrapped around the idea that it was over in the Fall of 2008. This is just the dying quivers. Stop waiting for "IT" to happen, "IT" already happened.
 

11:04 pm
November 14, 2011


Gallo

Bronze Apple
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posts 924

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SD,

There is remote and then there's you. Few people in the lower 48 could bug out as remotely as you. Most rural properties are reachable by a FM road in the lower 48. In your case, the biggest threat comes from the elements. Your situation is fairly sustainable provided the supply line of food and services isn 't interrupted. And provided that you die a swift death when the times comes. It sure would suck to have kidney stones and be 90 miles away from a doctor.

But we all got to go one way or another. I too would stay put where you are.

9:26 am
November 15, 2011


Jarhead

Arkansas

Diamond Apple
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posts 2326

35

Like the guy in the article said, without a large support group you are pretty much toast. It matters little where you live. Most people who live in a city have little chance of being able to move to the country and setting up a small farm. We all must play the hand that has been dealt us. Preparation is our hope….our only hope. 

"  When a well packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and it's speaker a raving lunatic." Dresden James 

10:10 am
November 15, 2011


Crab Apple

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posts 860

36

Pete said:

Crab Apple said:

….. and mutual defense agreements with neighbors  would be needed.

Ahhh: now we're getting back to the meat and potatoes of prepping!! Has anyone actually contacted their neighbors and brought up this type of mutual arrangement with any success; ie: not being thought of as a nutjob?

I am developing contacts with neighbors as possible so when I suggest the "Neighborhood Watch" it won't be my first time talking to them. I would not breech the subject until after  crime gets to the point where reasonable folks could see the benefit of having a neighbor assist them with some crossfire.

Two of my near neighbors are kin, I can count on them. I have Boyscouts on Steroids Friends about 15 miles away, I can also count on them but because they are 15 miles their assistance would only be usefull in a real siege type of situation. (Hmmm….. am I allowed to say siege on this forum?rofl

9:10 am
November 16, 2011


pm97

Florida

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Post edited 9:12 am – November 16, 2011 by pm97


I have not talked to any of my neighbors. My in laws either. They would go to their son's house in the next county up.

 

crabby- you can say constipated instead of siege…oh wait…thought you said seize. rolleyes  stick

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