You must be logged in to post Login Register


Register? | Lost Your Password?

Search Forums:


 






Minimum search word length is 3 characters – Maximum search word length is 84 characters
Wildcard Usage:
*  matches any number of characters    %  matches exactly one character

The Late Great United States

No Tags
UserPost

11:42 am
December 22, 2011


Jarhead

Arkansas

Diamond Apple
Diamond Apple

posts 2109

41

I'm sure that many of those who supported this bill believed these myths, unable to comprehend it being turn against political enemies.

 

  

 

Three myths about the detention bill 
By Glenn Greenwald

Friday, Dec 16, 2011 5:56 AM 23:19:30 GMT-0600 

Condemnation of President Obama is intense, and growing, as a result of his announced intent to sign into law the indefinite detention bill embedded in the 2012 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA). These denunciations come not only from the nation’s leading civil liberties and human rights groups, but also from the pro-Obama New York Times Editorial Page, which today has a scathing Editorial describing Obama’s stance as “a complete political cave-in, one that reinforces the impression of a fumbling presidency” and lamenting that “the bill has so many other objectionable aspects that we can’t go into them all,” as well as from vocal Obama supporters such as Andrew Sullivan, who wrote yesterday that this episode is “another sign that his campaign pledge to be vigilant about civil liberties in the war on terror was a lie.” In damage control mode, White-House-allied groups are now trying to ride to the rescue with attacks on the ACLU and dismissive belittling of the bill’s dangers.

For that reason, it is very worthwhile to briefly examine — and debunk — the three principal myths being spread by supporters of this bill, and to do so very simply: by citing the relevant provisions of the bill, as well as the relevant passages of the original 2001 Authorization to Use Military Force (AUMF), so that everyone can judge for themselves what this bill actually includes (this is all above and beyond the evidence I assembled in writing about this bill yesterday):

Myth #1: This bill does not codify indefinite detention

Section 1021 of the NDAA governs, as its title says, “Authority of the Armed Forces to Detain Covered Persons Pursuant to the AUMF.” The first provision — section (a) — explicitly “affirms that the authority of the President” under the AUMF ”includes the authority for the Armed Forces of the United States to detain covered persons.” The next section, (b), defines “covered persons” — i.e., those who can be detained by the U.S. military — as “a person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners.” With regard to those “covered individuals,” this is the power vested in the President by the next section, (c):

It simply cannot be any clearer within the confines of the English language that this bill codifies the power of indefinite detention. It expressly empowers the President — with regard to anyone accused of the acts in section (b) – to detain them “without trial until the end of the hostilities.” That is the very definition of “indefinite detention,” and the statute could not be clearer that it vests this power. Anyone claiming this bill does not codify indefinite detention should be forced to explain how they can claim that in light of this crystal clear provision.

It is true, as I’ve pointed out repeatedly, that both the Bush and Obama administrations have argued that the 2001 AUMF implicitly (i.e., silently) already vests the power of indefinite detention in the President, and post-9/11 deferential courts have largely accepted that view (just as the Bush DOJ argued that the 2001 AUMF implicitly (i.e., silently) allowed them to eavesdrop on Americans without the warrants required by law). That’s why the NDAA can state that nothing is intended to expand the 2001 AUMF while achieving exactly that: because the Executive and judicial interpretation being given to the 20o1 AUMF is already so much broader than its language provides.

But this is the first time this power of indefinite detention is being expressly codified by statute (there’s not a word about detention powers in the 2001 AUMF). Indeed, as the ACLU and HRW both pointed out, it’s the first time such powers are being codified in a statute since the McCarthy era Internal Security Act of 1950, about which I wrote yesterday.

Myth #2: The bill does not expand the scope of the War on Terror as defined by the 2001 AUMF

This myth is very easily dispensed with. The scope of the war as defined by the original 2001 AUMF was, at least relative to this new bill, quite specific and narrow. Here’s the full extent of the power the original AUMF granted:

(a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.

Under the clear language of the 2001 AUMF, the President’s authorization to use force was explicitly confined to those who (a) helped perpetrate the 9/11 attack or (b) harbored the perpetrators. That’s it. Now look at how much broader the NDAA is with regard to who can be targeted:

Section (1) is basically a re-statement of the 2001 AUMF. But Section (2) is a brand new addition. It allows the President to target not only those who helped perpetrate the 9/11 attacks or those who harbored them, but also: anyone who “substantially supports” such groups and/or “associated forces.” Those are extremely vague terms subject to wild and obvious levels of abuse (see what Law Professor Jonathan Hafetz told me in an interview last week about the dangers of those terms). This is a substantial statutory escalation of the War on Terror and the President’s powers under it, and it occurs more than ten years after 9/11, with Osama bin Laden dead, and with the U.S. Government boasting that virtually all Al Qaeda leaders have been eliminated and the original organization (the one accused of perpetrating 9/11 attack) rendered inoperable.

It is true that both the Bush and Obama administration have long been arguing that the original AUMF should be broadly “interpreted” so as to authorize force against this much larger scope of individuals, despite the complete absence of such language in that original AUMF. That’s how the Obama administration justifies its ongoing bombing of Yemen and Somalia and its killing of people based on the claim that they support groups that did not even exist at the time of 9/11 – i.e., they argue: these new post-9/11 groups we’re targeting are “associated forces” of Al Qaeda and the individuals we’re killing “substantially support” those groups. But this is the first time that Congress has codified that wildly expanded definition of the Enemy in the War on Terror. And all anyone has to do to see that is compare the old AUMF with the new one in the NDAA.

Myth #3: U.S. citizens are exempted from this new bill

This is simply false, at least when expressed so definitively and without caveats. The bill is purposely muddled on this issue which is what is enabling the falsehood.

There are two separate indefinite military detention provisions in this bill. The first, Section 1021, authorizes indefinite detention for the broad definition of “covered persons” discussed above in the prior point. And that section does provide that “Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States.” So that section contains a disclaimer regarding an intention to expand detention powers for U.S. citizens, but does so only for the powers vested by that specific section. More important, the exclusion appears to extend only to U.S. citizens “captured or arrested in the United States” — meaning that the powers of indefinite detention vested by that section apply to U.S. citizens captured anywhere abroad (there is some grammatical vagueness on this point, but at the very least, there is a viable argument that the detention power in this section applies to U.S. citizens captured abroad).

But the next section, Section 1022, is a different story. That section specifically deals with a smaller category of people than the broad group covered by 1021: namely, anyone whom the President determines is “a member of, or part of, al-Qaeda or an associated force” and “participated in the course of planning or carrying out an attack or attempted attack against the United States or its coalition partners.” For those persons, section (a) not only authorizes, but requires (absent a Presidential waiver), that they be held “in military custody pending disposition under the law of war.” The section title is “Military Custody for Foreign Al Qaeda Terrorists,” but the definition of who it covers does not exclude U.S. citizens or include any requirement of foreignness.

That section — 1022 — does not contain the broad disclaimer regarding U.S. citizens that 1021 contains. Instead, it simply says that the requirement of military detention does not apply to U.S. citizens, but it does not exclude U.S. citizens from the authority, the option, to hold them in military custody. Here is what it says:

The only provision from which U.S. citizens are exempted here is the “requirement” of military detention. For foreign nationals accused of being members of Al Qaeda, military detention is mandatory; for U.S. citizens, it is optional. This section does not exempt U.S citizens from the presidential power of military detention: only from the requirement of military detention.

The most important point on this issue is the same as underscored in the prior two points: the “compromise” reached by Congress includes language preserving the status quo. That’s because the Obama administration already argues that the original 2001 AUMF authorizes them to act against U.S. citizens (obviously, if they believe they have the power to target U.S. citizens for assassination, then they believe they have the power to detain U.S. citizens as enemy combatants). The proof that this bill does not expressly exempt U.S. citizens or those captured on U.S. soil is that amendments offered by Sen. Feinstein providing expressly for those exemptions were rejected. The “compromise” was to preserve the status quo by including the provision that the bill is not intended to alter it with regard to American citizens, but that’s because proponents of broad detention powers are confident that the status quo already permits such detention.

In sum, there is simply no question that this bill codifies indefinite detention without trial (Myth 1). There is no question that it significantly expands the statutory definitions of the War on Terror and those who can be targeted as part of it (Myth 2). The issue of application to U.S. citizens (Myth 3) is purposely muddled — that’s why Feinstein’s amendments were rejected — and there is consequently no doubt this bill can and will be used by the U.S. Government (under this President or a future one) to bolster its argument that it is empowered to indefinitely detain even U.S. citizens without a trial (NYT Editorial: “The legislation could also give future presidents the authority to throw American citizens into prison for life without charges or a trial”; Sen. Bernie Sanders: “This bill also contains misguided provisions that in the name of fighting terrorism essentially authorize the indefinite imprisonment of American citizens without charges”).

Even if it were true that this bill changes nothing when compared to how the Executive Branch has been interpreting and exercising the powers of the old AUMF, there are serious dangers and harms from having Congress — with bipartisan sponsors, a Democratic Senate and a GOP House — put its institutional, statutory weight behind powers previously claimed and seized by the President alone. That codification entrenches these powers. As the New York Times Editorial today put it: the bill contains “terrible new measures that will make indefinite detention and military trials a permanent part of American law.”

What’s particularly ironic (and revealing) about all of this is that former White House counsel Greg Craig assured The New Yorker‘s Jane Mayer back in February, 2009 that it’s “hard to imagine Barack Obama as the first President of the United States to introduce a preventive-detention law.” Four months later, President Obama proposed exactly such a law — one that The New York Times described as “a departure from the way this country sees itself, as a place where people in the grip of the government either face criminal charges or walk free” — and now he will sign such a scheme into law.

"  The Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."    John Adams 

2:10 pm
December 22, 2011


Crab Apple

Bronze Apple
Bronze Apple

posts 784

42

Shot Spotter technology being rolled out across America to quickly locate shooters hmmmmm…….. probably nothing…… just completely for our protection ……. nothing to see here, move along 

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech…..heartland/

3:28 pm
December 22, 2011


MW

Over the Rainbow

Silver Apple
Silver Apple

posts 1386

43

Awful, simply awful. Technology will be our downfall when it is supposed to garner growth and progress of civilization.

"In these sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution with all its faults, if they are such; because I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other."  -Ben Franklin

12:10 am
December 23, 2011


jamie

Golden Apple
Golden Apple

posts 1647

44

I don't know MW while I've not played with some of the Kid's "spy gear" I can see how it could make small area security good. Or at least a start and it could be done fairly cheap.  What were called military  drones we have RC autos and flyers with downloadable video that are toys and capable of night vision. Sure it's short range but it's cheap! 

I'd be happy as a soldier to run a couple of cheap RC cars and planes to do a perimiter checks and add in a few cameras as well. Cheap compared to a human life and no not perfect but doable.

If you wait for perfect you will be waiting a long time!

8:11 am
December 23, 2011


Crab Apple

Bronze Apple
Bronze Apple

posts 784

45

There is a niche RC air population that does "recon" type flights with HD keychain cameras that are VERY impressive but not live as they record in flight then view after landing but real time streaming would be real Dick Tracy kinda cool 

8:30 am
December 26, 2011


Jarhead

Arkansas

Diamond Apple
Diamond Apple

posts 2109

46

Post edited 8:35 am – December 26, 2011 by Jarhead


The answer for the United States problems ISM from 1948

"  The Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."    John Adams 

9:23 am
December 26, 2011


Crab Apple

Bronze Apple
Bronze Apple

posts 784

47

Jarhead said:

The answer for the United States problems ISM from 1948

We will be watching that in Crabby Valley School this morning. Thanks Jarhead.

12:44 pm
December 26, 2011


Jarhead

Arkansas

Diamond Apple
Diamond Apple

posts 2109

48

63 year old cartoon and they nailed it

"  The Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."    John Adams 

4:11 pm
December 26, 2011


Justin Case

Bronze Apple
Bronze Apple

posts 616

49

That cartoon makes me homesick for the rural America of the 1950s and 1960s where I grew up.  It reminds me of the You have two cows jokes:

Socialism: You have two cows. The government takes one and gives it to your neighbor.
Communism: You have two cows. You give them to the Government, and the Government then gives you some milk.
Fascism: You have two cows. You give them to the Government, and the Government then sells you some milk.
Capitalism: You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.
Nazism: You have two cows. The Government shoots you and takes the cows.
Bureaucracy: You have two cows. You give them to the Government, they shoot one and milk the other then pour the milk down the drain.

Plan Ahead

4:46 pm
December 30, 2011


Jarhead

Arkansas

Diamond Apple
Diamond Apple

posts 2109

50

Our Growing Police State

Our government has built an anti-Constitutional framework that can and will eventually be turned against our citizens.  

 http://www.americanthinker.com…..z1i3pUWnqu


"  The Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."    John Adams 

7:44 pm
January 4, 2012


Jarhead

Arkansas

Diamond Apple
Diamond Apple

posts 2109

51

Well he's done it again, "Obama defies Congress with ‘recess’ picks" how many times must he circumvent congress before they realize they are becoming irrelevant?  The more he get's away with the bolder he becomes.

Will there even be a 2012 election ?

 

 http://www.washingtontimes.com…..pointment/

"  The Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."    John Adams 

8:50 pm
January 4, 2012


Gallo

Bronze Apple
Bronze Apple

posts 732

52

I tell you. This guys will be a loose cannon if reelected. He will come after guns just to go down in history as the guy who disarmed America. Left wing nuts know this and will be super motivated to keep him in office.

9:30 am
January 5, 2012


Jarhead

Arkansas

Diamond Apple
Diamond Apple

posts 2109

53

THAT is the reason I won't make a protest vote, I will vote for whom ever has the best chance of beating Obama. I don't believe we've ever had a politician that was given the "pass"by the MSM that Obama has been given. Without that pass he couldn't have accomplish a fraction of what he has. Hillary was as bad as Obama and the MSM loves her, but I don't believe that even she would have received the pass Obama has. Without that support Obama would be toast.

Yes the Heller decision will be gone along with the second amendment if Obama  appoints one more judge. Is that worth your protest vote? 

"  The Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."    John Adams 

10:21 am
January 5, 2012


Gallo

Bronze Apple
Bronze Apple

posts 732

54

Post edited 10:53 am – January 5, 2012 by Gallo


Jarhead,

Supporting the republican establishment is no guarantee of the preservation of the 2nd amendment.  And we sure as hell know that it is no guarantee of preserving any other civil liberties—the Patriot Act being the most blatant insult to the Bill of Rights.   If I recall correctly, GW would've signed into law an extension of the Clinton AWB if it got to his desk.

So I will continue to support Dr. Paul.  If Newt, Santorum or Romney is the candidate I'll support my republican Rep and Senator but still write in Ron Paul.  The conservative justices are fairly young still and unlikely to croak on Obama's watch, so the composition of the court won't change much.  Lower federal courts will get liberal judges for 4 more years but that's something I'm willing to live with.

The line has got to be drawn somewhere.  I'm done settling for the lesser of two evils.

10:59 am
January 5, 2012


MW

Over the Rainbow

Silver Apple
Silver Apple

posts 1386

55

That is a persuasive argument for voting for anyone but Obama, Jarhead. However, looking back at the past several elections I have done that very thing (bought into the lesser of two evils philosophy), I see that such a methodology is flawed and fails in the long term. Once again, I'm with Gallo in saying:

 

R.P. or R.I.P. America.

"In these sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution with all its faults, if they are such; because I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other."  -Ben Franklin

3:01 pm
January 5, 2012


Jarhead

Arkansas

Diamond Apple
Diamond Apple

posts 2109

56

Post edited 3:05 pm – January 5, 2012 by Jarhead


If it were anyone but Obama I would be with you but he has the ability like no other to implement his agenda. He, with the help of the MSM has the ability to appear moderate to the uninformed, people won't oppose his policies for fear of being labeled a raciest. This is NOT politics as usual, this is the most formidable foe America has ever faced. We have never and may never again face the abilities of Obama. He''s black assuring him of the minority vote (no matter what he does) he's articulate (at least as long as he's reading a teleprompter) he has the liberal and youth vote locked up as tightly as the minority vote. The MSM covers for him and the sheep won't believe his true agenda, no one at any  time and of any  race could get by with what he does. He is their perfect candidate. I look at this as a holding operation, there is to much to lose to allow Obama to win just to prove a point. If there were ever and I mean ever a time to vote for the "least bad" in order to remove Obama this is it. Ron Paul nor anyone else has a prayer of winning on a third party ticket, you all know this is true so a vote for a third party candidate is truly a vote for Obama. 

 I see that such a methodology is flawed and fails in the long term.

You can't win in the long term if you lose in the short term….truly lose….game over….no redo ….kaput  

"  The Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."    John Adams 

3:16 pm
January 5, 2012


Jarhead

Arkansas

Diamond Apple
Diamond Apple

posts 2109

57

Post edited 3:19 pm – January 5, 2012 by Jarhead


“This is the most corrupt, incompetent, dangerous tyrannical administration in American history,” he declared.

It’s not politics as usual. It’s not just Democrats versus Republicans,” Savage said.

Obama, he said, is “not a Democrat,” noting the president’s history of ties to Marxists and other radicals documented in his book

 “Trickle Up Poverty.”

 

On his radio show last night, Mark Levin said that President Barack Obama has caused a “constitutional crisis” by appointing members to the National Labor Relations Board and a director to the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau without going through the constitutionally required Senate confirmation process.

http://cnsnews.com/blog/patric…..nal-crisis

 

Brushing aside criticism of President Obama’s recess appointments made while Congress was in session, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi told The Daily Caller that his decision was “bold” and said Democrats are “glad” the president “took the lead” on the appointments.

 http://dailycaller.com/2012/01…..z1icYHjwfs

 

Who in the hell other than Obama could get by with this?

"  The Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."    John Adams 

4:03 pm
January 5, 2012


MW

Over the Rainbow

Silver Apple
Silver Apple

posts 1386

58

If it were anyone but Obama I would be with you but he has the ability like no other to implement his agenda. He, with the help of the MSM has the ability to appear moderate to the uninformed, people won't oppose his policies for fear of being labeled a raciest. This is NOT politics as usual, this is the most formidable foe America has ever faced. We have never and may never again face the abilities of Obama. He''s black assuring him of the minority vote (no matter what he does) he's articulate (at least as long as he's reading a teleprompter) he has the liberal and youth vote locked up as tightly as the minority vote. The MSM covers for him and the sheep won't believe his true agenda, no one at any  time and of any  race could get by with what he does. He is their perfect candidate. I look at this as a holding operation, there is to much to lose to allow Obama to win just to prove a point. If there were ever and I mean ever a time to vote for the "least bad" in order to remove Obama this is it. Ron Paul nor anyone else has a prayer of winning on a third party ticket, you all know this is true so a vote for a third party candidate is truly a vote for Obama.

 

This issue is more strategic than a spur of the moment decision can do credit to. Savage, Levin, Limbaugh, Hannity and most of the other talk radio hosts are neocon war-mongers, but they are mostly right about Obama's agenda and capabilities. At least the err on the side of "protecting America" althought as I've said they are dead-wrong despite good intentions. Obama is dead-wrong with dark intentions.

 

True, losing short-term can lead to long-term failure (or doom) but I believe Obama's second term would finally wake up the rest of America (all beit perhaps too late) wereas a Romney or O.T.P. (other-than-Paul) candidate would put them back to sleep. "Ok, now we're back on track..politics as usual." they might say.

 

Paul is the only middle way between 1) waking up and facing a nightmare [OBAMA 2nd term] and 2) ingnorant bliss of a daydream [Romney, Ging, Sant, etc.].

ron-paul2012

"In these sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution with all its faults, if they are such; because I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other."  -Ben Franklin

5:48 pm
January 5, 2012


Jarhead

Arkansas

Diamond Apple
Diamond Apple

posts 2109

59

If a Republican wins things will continue to go down hill and who ever it is will probably be a one term president. People will blame it (rightfully so) on politics as usual and vote for a Democrat the next cycle. The system will crash (maybe sooner …. maybe later) and possibly  the sheep will wake up (probably not), but whom ever is at the helm when SHTF  can mean the difference between bad times and Marxism, between freedom and slavery. We are in for bad times, of that there is no doubt, maybe years of hard time, but given a chance  we may be able to pull out of it……. eventually. If I'm wrong I can cast my protest vote for president in four years in the mean time we can work on the congress and senate. 

"  The Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."    John Adams 

7:47 pm
January 5, 2012


Gallo

Bronze Apple
Bronze Apple

posts 732

60

On the other hand, I live in a very red state, so I can afford to be whimsical about 'wasting' my vote. But that's not why I would write-in RP with a sharpie.

No Tags

About the Grab The Apple Forum

Forum Timezone: America/Chicago

Most Users Ever Online: 57

Currently Online:
11 Guests

Currently Browsing this Topic:
5 Guests

Forum Stats:

Groups: 5
Forums: 21
Topics: 1152
Posts: 14721

Membership:

There are 300 Members
There have been 30 Guests

There is 1 Admin

Top Posters:

Jarhead – 2109
jamie – 1647
MW – 1386
EN – 942
Crab Apple – 784
Gallo – 732

Recent New Members: biohak, kasperholly, halden, NorIDhunter, irma

Administrators: Jedi (164 Posts)