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11:35 am August 29, 2010
| Marblesonac
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|  Bronze Apple | posts 565 | |
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So you have more food, bullets or beans than you need and you have to get feminine hygiene products or gasoline etc..
You decide to sell some of your stockpile. No one wants to straight up trade you the things you need for what you have.
What would you take in trade? I'm guessing you would sell for silver or gold, but not many have these, what else would you take in barter to get what you need?
Dollars are devaluing by the minute, so you don't want these.
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Stop bitching and start a revolution!
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11:41 am August 29, 2010
| pm97
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|  Bronze Apple | posts 637 | |
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Post edited 11:46 am – August 29, 2010 by pm97
Med supplies, things that I KNOW other of my contacts need. Things I think Might be tradable at some point in the furture.
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12:07 pm August 29, 2010
| Jarhead
| | Arkansas | |
|  Diamond Apple | posts 2064 | |
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Post edited 3:33 pm – August 29, 2010 by Jarhead
What would you take in trade?
I would always take food. It doesn't matter if I have enough or not, others don't and there is no better barter item. If someone's family is starving they will trade anything they have for food. If they don't have food then I would trade for anything I need the key word is NEED. If they don't have anything I need then I wont be trading with them. There will be plenty of other to trade with.
Turn this around….. what would I use for trade if I need some thing?…… FOOD, I plan on raising enough food to not only survive , but have enough left over to "spend". I have enough diesel fuel, fertilizer, seed and land to grow Lots of vegetables. I'm thinking potatoes, you can grow more pound per acre of potatoes than almost any crop. They are very nutritious and here is what really got me to thinking potatoes….they are much harder to steal than other crops. You can't just sneak in after dark and grab a handful, they have to be dug up.
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" The Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams
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12:15 pm August 29, 2010
| pm97
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|  Bronze Apple | posts 637 | |
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Never thought about the security of taters. Interesting. I do have a couple of plots of sweet taters.
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12:29 pm August 29, 2010
| Sourdough
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|  Bronze Apple | posts 728 | |
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I think labor or skills. That is what we trade now. It has a rough current value that is agreed today, and I would expect the ratio to remain close. I remember back in the 40's and early 50's that men would knock on the door, and ask if they could work for food, or have a slice of bread. They really meant work, not give to me.
So, there was always a barn to paint, brush to chop back, a fence to whitewash, drainage ditches that needed cleaning. Now we have a machine for everything, not back then. There was no Brush'Hog, there was a Brush'Axe, Cycle, Scythe. Work is something most everyone has available to trade.
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LOOK: Start to get wrapped around the idea that it was over in the Fall of 2008. This is just the dying quivers. Stop waiting for "IT" to happen, "IT" already happened.
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12:59 pm August 29, 2010
| Crab Apple
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|  Bronze Apple | posts 761 | |
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Well if I know what the folks that have what I want WILL take in trade I would try to get that.
In the area I am in a good medium of exchange might be ammo (since in your scenario you said they didn't want to trade food)
22LR, 12 gauge anything, 30.30 (popular "brush gun" for deer here) of course popular handgun calibers.
It is small, valuable, stores well, counterfiting it would be kinda hard (I guess they could remove some or all the powder)
Alchohol and tobacco are always valuable. They might work as a medium of exchange in this situatuon.
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1:20 pm August 29, 2010
| Sourdough
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|  Bronze Apple | posts 728 | |
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Post edited 1:22 pm – August 29, 2010 by Sourdough
I would trade for a Good Woman. Might trade for two Good Women……..
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LOOK: Start to get wrapped around the idea that it was over in the Fall of 2008. This is just the dying quivers. Stop waiting for "IT" to happen, "IT" already happened.
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3:53 pm August 29, 2010
| Clark
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|  Core Member | posts 473 | |
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If the dollar goes hyper, what would you take instead?
Whatever seems to have value.
I'm reminded of a bit I read somewhere that said something like, "Most everyone today knows the price of everything and the value of nothing."
Pre-1981 U.S. copper pennies and all U.S. nickels produced to date might be useful for the trading process, especially for low value items.
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5:16 pm August 29, 2010
| Justin Case
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|  Bronze Apple | posts 610 | |
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One approach to consider if the economic collapse lasts a long time and you live in a close-knit community is a Community Currency:
Community Currency is a means of exchange that has a localized value. This value is limited to a specific community, usually restricted within a geographical region. This structure keeps the wealth created by the exchange of goods and services within the local community — it cannot be extracted or exported, or even really, benefited from by those whose primary allegiances lie outside of the community.
Most of us already use alternative currencies in many aspects of our life. Bus passes, movie tickets, gift certificates — even tokens and tickets within video arcades — are all used as a means of exchange for acquiring services or goods (although very restricted in where they have value). Coupons are used similarly, with value in potentially broader circles. From Ithaca, NY to Tucson, AZ, and from Germany to Argentina,
communities have benefited from a structure for exchange that
prioritizes local sustainability.
There are over sixty regions in the United States using their own monetary systems—the most well-known being Ithaca Hours. Started in 1991, this New York currency works on the hours model, which means that an hour’s work is used as the unit by which the value of goods and services are compared. Paper money is printed and used, which has the advantage of feeling “real,” highlighting local artists or landmarks. Ithaca Hours are issued by fiat, which refers to a type of currency whose value is guaranteed by the authority issuing it rather than by any external reference or backing.
You could exchange goods (e.g., food) for goods (e.g., gasoline). But maybe you exchange your time (e.g., fix your neighbor's car) for "time credits" that you can exchange for goods (e.g., gasoline) or services (e.g., someone fixes your plumbing). The system can be formal or informal, but everyone who participates has to be honest.
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8:04 pm August 29, 2010
| pm97
| | Florida | |
|  Bronze Apple | posts 637 | |
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Crab Apple said:
Alchohol and tobacco are always valuable. They might work as a medium of exchange in this situatuon.
Alchohol and tobacco have been and wil be great mediums of exchange.
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8:25 pm August 29, 2010
| Clark
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|  Core Member | posts 473 | |
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Yes, I have a number of tokens, gift certificates and passes and they no longer have purchasing power anywhere. Their value has become zero.
While I originally kind of liked, "time credits" I don't think they work as was proven recently by the co-op bargaining lots of the poor in Argentina which was discussed on the blog. Such appears to work at first, and the intentions might be good, but then things go bad.
The other kinds of scripts also don't work, because they are subject to counterfeiting and the same troubles the fiat money printing of The Fed let loose on the U.S. Dollar, and Not everyone who participates will be honest. It's the money that has to be honest, not the participants.
An, "hours unit" besides being backed by nothing like most goberment authorative issuers, is subject to widely changing wage rates or goberment imposed wage rates which would dilute the value of any savings, among other bad outcomes the same as with the U.S. Dollar today.
The currencies made with real metal content (N. Dakota Indian silver dollars for one example among others) would overcome these obstacles and they seem to be perceived as a threat by TPTB which is why the makers are often taken to court over the matter or jailed. There's several recent examples of this.
A partial excerpt and a solution from the article, We Don’t Need No Stinkin’ Gold Standard:
What we need is market-produced money. This may take a number of possible forms, such as e-money backed by metals such as silver and gold, or silver coin, or gold coin and bullion for larger transactions.
Market-produced money differs radically from government-controlled and government-produced money. With market-produced money, there cannot be a systematically injurious deflation or harmful shortage of money. If the demand for money exceeds the supply to the point where the costs of a money shortage to demanders are exceeding the costs of producing more money, the market will produce more money and eliminate the shortage.
By the same token, with market-produced money, there cannot be a systematically injurious inflation or excess of money. If the supply of a money exceeds its demand at a given price, the market will reduce the supply and demanders will seek alternative money, thereby eliminating the excess demand.
With market-produced money, variations in the demand and supply of money will be of no greater consequence than the analogous variations of any other of the thousands of goods and services that the government does not control and whose prices are market-determined.
With market-produced money, there cannot be a money-caused business cycle of any substantial consequence, because prolonged alterations in money supply and interest rates caused by government control of money will be absent…
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8:33 pm August 29, 2010
| Clark
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|  Core Member | posts 473 | |
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Alchohol and tobacco have been and wil be great mediums of exchange.
I might say "good" mediums of exchange, but not, "great"
Alcohol is perhaps a half-way good money but bottles break and they are sometimes heavy and bulky.
Tobacco tends to go stale and mold and is slightly useless when wet, however it does work somewhat better in maintaining value than most, "time credits" and fiat scripts.
How long does tobacco last?
One good thing about alcohol is that most forms improve with age, that's an added value which increases the price, but that can work to your disadvantage too I suspect.
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9:09 pm August 29, 2010
| Justin Case
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|  Bronze Apple | posts 610 | |
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Cigarettes and candy bars have been used as currencies in POW camps because these items are usually in short supply in that kind of setting (and hence have an inherent "worth" to them by the users of those currencies).
As far as scripts and credits go, it depends on your local community. If you are among half a dozen households in an area that get along well, for example, you probably help each other out and have no formal way of tracking each others' contributions (i.e., "you help me fix my car and I help you fix your plumbing"). This kind of sharing also works best when everyone is facing the same danger (as would be the case in an economic collapse or natural disaster situation). In the ideal world, this danger will gradually go away as the collapse or disaster stabilizes and life would get back to "normal" at some point.
As the community expands, a more formal accounting would likely be required to keep everything straight and that is where a local script of some sort would come into play. But it works only if everyone remains honest and is committed to the purpose of the script — a way to reconcile the value of goods and services contributed and needed. An hour of time is valued in terms of pounds of food, for example, and could be independent of what the hour or food is worth in dollars. I visited Japan in the 1980s when the exchange rate was 150 yen to the dollar. A cup of coffee cost 600 yen at the time, which was 4 dollars (this was before Starbucks). As long as I kept thinking in terms of yen, I had no concerns; the minute I thought in terms of dollars, I would cringe.
As the number of people on the currency expands, the risk of counterfeiting becomes a problem as people try to game the system. It also become tempting for government to tamper with the value of the currency because there is nothing to compare it against (whcih is a problem with all fiat currencies — they are only as good as the honesty of the parties that stipulate them as legal tender).
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9:37 pm August 29, 2010
| raymond673
| | Texas | |
|  Fresh Fruit | posts 21 | 
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Problems With "VICE" Items
People will need toilet paper. Seems like a good thing to barter with. I also agree, candy.
I can't say I agree with promoting a "vice" that might come back to bite you later in the rear.
Drugs, crime, alchol use will rise sharply.
When one contributes to this sort of thing, it brings the "unwanted" behavior into your area. Anyone who is addicted is a slave to that substance. Depending upon that substance and how addicted that person is will result in the actions they will take to ensure that they are able to get more. Specially under a time of stress when most addicts are not able to handle the reality that is stairing them in the face.
Don't know about you, but I have seen some pretty mean folks when they don't have their smokes. Now would someone kill another over a pack of cigarettes? Who knows. I don't know about you, but I would just rather someone like that in my area. Same goes with drinking, drugs or any other vice.
I think that 22 rim fire wlll be a good barter item, in fact any of the common rounds. 9mm, 45 acp, 357, 223, 308, 30-06, 12 gauge, etc. Also common magazines. Glock 9mm fits the 26,19,&17, 1911 mags, and so forth.
Here is another thing.. ER 3600 Bars – they are inexpensive and packed with vitamins, calories, etc. Each bar is 400 cal worth of food.
Ray
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10:22 pm August 29, 2010
| Jarhead
| | Arkansas | |
|  Diamond Apple | posts 2064 | |
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This is a little off subject but I'm curious as to what you guys think. I was talking to a relative of mine today who farms about the need for him to prep. He said if things got as bad as I predict he has several thousand bushels of rice and beans in his grain bins he could live on. After thinking about it I realized that there are hundreds of grain bins in this area that will soon be brimming with grain. We also have Ricelands Foods largest grain drier in our town with millions of bushels of rice and beans. Will this make a difference when the SHTF ? Will agricultural communities be better off and experience less strife than urban area or will the government come in and seize these commodities?

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" The Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams
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10:36 pm August 29, 2010
| jadalina
| | Texas | |
|  Core Member | posts 142 | |
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Post edited 10:41 pm – August 29, 2010 by jadalina
Albuterol inhalers from Mexico, the kind that still have the propellant that friggin works.
If any of you are asthmatics, you'll know what I'm talking about. A while back the EPA banned the propellant in Albuterol inhalers, under the explanation that it was creating a hole in the ozone layer. Now I don't know about most asthmatics, but I for one do not go spraying my inhaler into the friggin air, so I call BS on that excuse. Not that the EPA cares much. The new propellant is a joke, barely strong enough to blow the medicine to the opening of the canister, where it just gums the stupid thing up. Nothing really gets into your lungs. Thousands of asthmatics are going ballistic over the stinkin things, many winding up in the ER because they huffed and puffed and got nothing but a hint of albuterol, but no one cares. The EPA (and my idiot doctor) all say I'm not inhaling right… because you know, I've only been using it for 20 years and I musta forgotten how it works. They ain't liftin that ban anytime soon. Fortunately for me, I have a buddy with family in Mexico (and Mexico gets the exact same inhaler, but with the evil old propellant that works). They lease some land from me down south, and I take inhalers in lieu of cash. Not that Primatine Mist crap, that mess will run your heart rate up to 200 and you'll still be unable to breathe.
Anyway, chickens, booze, smokes, toilet paper, I can live without all that drek, but were TS to HTF, I would just about kill for Albuterol inhalers out of Mexico. They're called Salbutamol down there, btw. ;)
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11:05 pm August 29, 2010
| Justin Case
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|  Bronze Apple | posts 610 | |
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Jarhead said:
Will agricultural communities be better off and experience less strife than urban area or will the government come in and seize these commodities?
Here is my take — it depends on how badly the SHTF. The worse the collapse, the greater the emergency, and the more likely food stocks will be seized (at least those that are at food processing companies because they are the most easily seizable).
Look at what the governments did in Canada and talked about doing in the United States after the anthrax scare in 2001 (Canada Overrides Patent for Cipro to Treat Anthrax):
Published: October 19, 2001 Canada, taking an unusual step that the United States has resisted, said yesterday that it had overridden Bayer's patent for Cipro, an antibiotic to treat anthrax, and ordered a million tablets of a generic version from a Canadian company.
"These are extraordinary and unusual times," said Paige Raymond Kovach, a spokeswoman for Health Canada. "Canadians expect and demand that their government will take all steps necessary to protect their health and safety."
But Cipro's manufacturer, Bayer A.G. ( news/quote ), condemned the move and said it could meet the demand for Cipro on its own.
The White House said it was unmoved by Canada's action and was not considering breaking Bayer's patent. "We don't feel there's a need to lift the patent at this time," said Anthony T. Jewell, a spokesman at the Department of Health and Human Services. "Multiple drugs can be used to treat anthrax, and Bayer has assured us that it can meet our demand for Cipro."
But Senator Charles E. Schumer, Democrat of New York, who has been negotiating with the administration on a plan to buy generic versions of Cipro, said he had called Tommy G. Thompson, the secretary of health and human services, to renew his plea that the United States follow Canada's lead.
"I know there's concern about what the pharmaceutical industry thinks but we're in an emergency situation and everybody has to give," Senator Schumer said.
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11:06 pm August 29, 2010
| Sourdough
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|  Bronze Apple | posts 728 | |
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Jarhead said:
Will this make a difference when the SHTF ? Will agricultural communities be better off and experience less strife than urban area or will the government come in and seize these commodities?
In my opinion, Yes. I feel that being near masive amounts of food is the key to survival. This is why I feel South East Alaska would be my first choice for location.
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LOOK: Start to get wrapped around the idea that it was over in the Fall of 2008. This is just the dying quivers. Stop waiting for "IT" to happen, "IT" already happened.
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4:28 am August 30, 2010
| Clark
| | USA | |
|  Core Member | posts 473 | |
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It's not Just the short supply that creates the value of the chocolate in a POW camp, it's the work it takes to produce the item, combined with the demand (which includes the quality) and the ability to purchase, along with the short supply.
A person may have to compete for goods and services too. For instance, would you want a handful of precious metal coins to work hard a whole day, or would you want a bucketful of stale tobacco and melted stale chocolate that the seller swore up and down he thought was fresh and tastie (or was the good kind of inhaler, the label even says so) when it turned out otherwise?
If a person has the option and can buy what he wants with the coins (and like jadalina, knows where to get what they want) the person who offers him the coins would get the service or the good and the person offering tobacco and chocolate might have to go without.
Justin Case said, "As far as scripts and credits go, it depends on your local community. If you are among half a dozen households in an area that get along well, for example, you probably help each other out and have no formal way of tracking each others' contributions (i.e., "you help me fix my car and I help you fix your plumbing")."
I've seen that setup of, "you help me and I'll help you" just fall apart badly way too many times, even between best of neighbors and friends or relatives in a good economy. The car wasn't "fixed" as good as expected, or the plumbing needs an extra five unanticipated hours of work at midnight that wasn't calculated into the deal. Or, they'll say, "I did X and now they won't do Y" at all, or not until next month when you don't need it. And the slightly famous line which goes something like, "That will be the last time I work for peanuts."
Stuff like that makes scripts and credits a bad bargain for people on both sides of the trade in many cases and it's why many people won't risk their relationship by trading in such a manner as they value their relationship more.
I'm sure it works ok for some people some of the time, just not all of the people all of the time and certainly not all that often between strangers, enough to depend on anyway. That all seems like Socialism and Communism and it's often not very equitable.
Some groups of people such as the Amish might do this, but I imagine even they have difficulties, I suspect it's their religious views that are the bond and not the credit or script. Or perhaps they don't do this and their barn raisings and such are a form of charity with no strings attached?
Justin Case said, "But it works only if everyone remains honest and is committed to the purpose of the script — a way to reconcile the value of goods and services contributed and needed. An hour of time is valued in terms of pounds of food, for example, and could be independent of what the hour or food is worth in dollars."
That's just it, the idea of people being committed to a script (or fiat dollar) is slightly ludicrous on the surface (think about it, committed to a script?) and if the value of one or the other is not fixed, it fluctuates. I don't imagine many people want to knowingly work for a fluctuating value unless it works out in their favor and even then someone else is getting the short end of the stick.
The story Ferfal relates to on his blog (or was it in his book?) about the little old man who everyone thought highly of yet he turned out to be the criminal shows that even the best of people won't be honest, that's why the money has to be honest. There's an endless list of people not being honest when it comes to money, in good times and especially in bad times, and surprisingly sometimes over petty things.
An hour of time is valued in potatoes today and beets tomorrow because the potatoes spoiled last night? Are they mostly rotten, or just somewhat rotten, knowingly or not? It's an ever changing system based on food not being spoiled and such – which isn't a very stable way to trade – yet it might work for a short term trade between neighbors, relatives or friends, but even then, or should I say, even now, those kinds of arrangements sometimes fall apart and create all kinds of strife by themselves and grow beyond that initial trouble, something that a sound reliable money based on something like metals would lessen considerably.
That Canadian goberment attitude above is scary stuff, by the way. The breakdown of the rule of law and all that.
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7:31 am August 30, 2010
| Crab Apple
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|  Bronze Apple | posts 761 | |
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Clark said
"Some groups of people such as the Amish might do this, but I imagine
even they have difficulties, I suspect it's their religious views that
are the bond and not the credit or script. Or perhaps they don't do this
and their barn raisings and such are a form of charity with no strings
attached?"
The barn raising and such are kinda charity kinda social event and, as a VERY successful contractor(construction),beef farmer,chicken farmer I know said
"the Amish don't have insurance but if their barn burns down they will have a barn raising and they will get a new barn……. WITH new livestock and hay and grain…. I think beats my insurance…"
I live near Amish and they are more modern than most people think and do rely on the supply chain allot. The Amish are very capable of transitioning to self sufficiency though….. except for security as they are pacifists. In this area they do raise allot of tobacco and produce/partake of alcohol.
I purchased some tobaccy seeds this summer …. to late for proper planting but I will harvest just a little and see how it stores in a carbon dioxide environment (after drying). I read that it will store indefinitely in a controlled environment (temp and humidity) BUT is subject to the possibilities of tobacco larva hatching and oxidization(getting a stale taste) sooooo I am thinking replacing the oxygen with co2 will alleviate those problems (I keep a 75 pound cylinder of co2 for paintball refills, gross weight 225#) and see how it goes.
In Sarajevo people were literally smoking weeds and tree leaves so I believe even stale tobaccy will have some value. I am thinking tobacco could be a luxury item I could produce for sale/barter. I really want to be able to produce a few such items like tobacco , alcohol, electricity (charging batteries for a fee)
Though I must agree that items which are not subject to spoiling would serve better as a medium of exchange.
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